Speed Gibson

DS (David Strom): You guys want to re-fight the entire session. You want to redo taxes. You want to redo the bonding bill. You want to redo every bill that [Governor Pawlenty] vetoed.

LP (Larry Pogemiller): David, that's absolutely not true.

DS: OK, so what is true?

LP: What you said on "Almanac" was absolutely not true. In private meetings, I have not requested one thing for the Special Session. The Governor asked Speaker Kelliher and I if we would have a Special Session and we said yes. He said he wanted to take up a long term solution, comprehensive solution [for the] transportation bill including the gas tax. He said he wanted to take up a tax bill for local government aid, and he said he wanted to take up a bonding bill. We said yes.

DS: OK, but the question is when you say a long term comprehensive ...

LP: Those were the Governor's words, and there have been no demands put on with regard to what that would be.

DS: When we heard from [State Senator] Steve Murphy, he said well what passed is the floor and that was a one and half billion dollar a year tax increase. What passed is the floor, not the ceiling, so you're going to rewrite a bill ...

LP: David, what you said that I said is just not true. You need to be accurate. I know you want to be accurate. It is simply not true that I have I have had any demands whatsoever for a Special Session. The Governor put the gas tax on the table. We are willing to do the gas tax if he is willing to do it. We are willing to do a comprehensive transportation bill if he is willing to do it. We are willing to do LGA if he is willing to do it. Those are the things he put on the table. If he chooses not to do those things, we should have a Special Session and just deal with flood relief and the bridge. Absolutely. Absolutely. If he does not want to do those other items, we should not do them. The primary thing to do is the bridge and the flood relief.

DS: OK. [...] I've got the bill right in my pocket, right here for the comprehensive transportation bill. [...]

LP: [...] What I said was that the Governor asked for comprehensive solution. And if everybody would get out of spin mode, and just talk about doing the right thing, we would get the right thing done. It's very simple. We know what we'll do on flood relief. We should do that. We know what we should do on the bridge. We should do that. And if the Governor wants to do additional items, we should do that also. If he doesn't, we should not do those additional items. It's that simple.

DS: So if it's that simple, why have the negotiations gone so badly?

LP: I don't think the negotiations have gone badly. I think that the Governor [is] not yet ready with the particulars of the bill. That's OK. We should wait until we get the particulars of the bill for flood relief and the bridge. And if there are additional items, we should do those also. And if political pundits will just calm down, we will have a Special Session. We will do a limited agenda in a short period of time, as the Governor has asked.

DS: All right, now let me ask you this: is [Lt. Governor] Carol Molnau's appointment [as Commissioner of Transportation] going to come up?

LP: I absolutely haven't given that a thought.

DS: The Governor's got to give that a thought because if you guys go into session, he can't control what happens. [Reading the newspapers,] there have been these maximalist claims like the Transportation Bill that was put out there is the floor, not the ceiling. That is, after all, your Committee Chair who said that.

LP: David, to be fair, the Lt. Governor said we would need a 30 to 36 cent gas tax to do the right thing. We're not going to raise 36 cent gas tax. We're just simply not going to do that. I hold the Governor for what he says. He can hold me for what I say. But you can't hold me for what another member of the Legislature says.

DS: [...] I'm not holding you for that ...

LP: Does Steve Murphy believe there should be a comprehensive package like the bill he passed? You bet he does.

DS: Is that going to come up?

LP: I don't know if it's going to come up.

DS: The Governor's got to know that before he calls a Special Session.

LP: No, the Governor needs to know what will be put on his desk.

DS: Here, we're hearing a slightly different story.

LP: No, David, we're not hearing a different story.

DS: If the Governor calls a Special Session, he cannot undo that. Unless there is a comprehensive agreement beforehand ...

LP: The Governor does not have the power to tell every single Legislator what they're going to do. I don't either.

DS: If Roger Moe were there, they'd have cut a deal. [...]

LP: The Speaker and I thought we had an agreement with the Governor, to have a limited agenda that involved the items he suggested. I personally think we still do have an agreement. Therefore, I'm assuming there's going to be a Special Session. I'm assuming it's going to be limited in scope. And the issue of how comprehensive the Transportation Bill is is simply up to the Governor. If he wants to have it limited just to the gas tax, perhaps that will be all we do. But I can't control that.

DS: [...] You are the leader of your caucus.

LP: It's a democracy. People get to vote yes or no. I can't tell Steve Murphy how to vote. I can't tell Tim Pawlenty whether to veto a bill or not. All I can do is control my own vote [and] keep my public rhetoric focused on the two things that are crucial to do right now, which are fix the bridge and do the flood relief. Every public comment I have made has been around those issues. That's all I can do.

DS: That's all you can do, but you are the leader of your caucus. When Steve Sviggum would go and cut a deal with the Governor, there were a lot of people I know in the Republican caucus who would complain, "Weill I'm sorry, this is not what I like. I don't want to vote for this." But at the end of the day, that was the deal that was cut.

LP: [...] The Governor have an agreement.

DS: Can you keep your agreement?

LP: Ahhh... In my 25 year history in the State Senate, I don't think you'll ever find one instance where someone says I haven't kept an agreement.

DS: I asking: can you keep your caucus in control or is it going to turn into a circus?

LP Absolutely it's not going to turn into a circus. The Speaker and I have the power to make sure it's a limited, short agenda. Absolutely.

DS: And are you assuring the people of Minnesota now ...

LP: I'm assuring the people of the state that we're going to do the right thing.

DS: No no, is it going to be a limited short session?

LP: It absolutely is going to be a limited, short session. Absolutely.

DS: So there's not going to be an attempt to pass a "compo", what you call a comprehensive, which is a sales tax people can't vote on ...

LP: David, I have no idea what members of the Senate and the House will try to do. All I can tell you is that it will be a short, limited agenda. We will accomplish flood relief and what's necessary on the bridge. That's all I can guarantee. That's what we will do.

DS: But you're not guaranteeing that these other things won't happen.

LP: I can't guarantee that somebody else won't introduce a bill. I can't guarantee that.

DS: Well, wait a sec. You're the Majority Leader. You're supposed to be in control of your caucus.

LP: It's a democracy.

DS: Oh but it is not a democracy! [...] I mean, we know this. [...]

LP: It is not a democracy?

DS: Not the Minnesota State Senate. It's not a democracy. You have a caucus, don't you?

MM (Margaret Martin): Yeah, you're the leader.

DS: [...] Are you telling me that as leader of the Minnesota State Senate you actually have no control at all over your caucus? Aren't you in there appointing Committee Chairs?

LP: Actually not. If you knew how the Senate works, the Majority Leader does not appoint Committee Chairs. A committee of the Senate appoints Committee Chairs. It is a democracy, unlike what you apparently believe. I do not have the power to appoint or take ...

DS: [...] I follow the House very closely. The Speaker of the House ...

LP: The Speaker does have power to appoint Committee Chairs. The [Senate] Majority Leader does not. That's a fine nuance, that if you read, you would know.

DS: [...] I do a little bit about State government, having worked around it. And one of the things I've noticed was that the Senate used to be a well-oiled machine.

LP: I think the Senate was a well-oiled machine.

DS: Is it a well-oiled machine now?

LP: The Senate put out two separate budgets. One was ...

DS: [...] The got vetoed, and what I'm hearing from State Senators is [that] they want to refight single every one of those issues.

LP: (pause) I'm not hearing that.

DS: That's what we're reading in the newspaper.

LP: That's what you're saying, David.

DS: Didn't Steve Murphy say the Transportation Bill that's going to come out [...]

LP: [...] He absolutely did not say that.

DS: Yes he did. He did. He said it was a floor, not a ceiling. He said that. It's in the Star Tribune.

LP: That's a little different from what bill's going to come out of the Senate because Steve Murphy can't control that either. [...] He has one voice. He has one vote. [...] It is a democracy and people get to vote.

DS: So you're telling me everything is a pure democracy and you have no control. Committee chairs have no control ovre what happens?

LP: What passes the Senate floor ...

DS: [...] I was a Political Science professor. I had no idea that when they elect caucus leaders and committee chairs that these people just sort of sit there and wait and find out what their members want.

LP: I don't think that's what I said.

DS: OK. Can they lead their committees?

LP: They can try, yes, absolutely. They do try. I presume Senator Murphy will try to lead his committee.

DS: And is he going to try to get a bill that's a floor, not a ceiling?

LP: I believe he will try to get what he believes is to be a comprehensive Transportation package.

DS: But he's not going to pass what you want. I mean, you guys fundamentally disagree.

LP: Right now you don't know what I want, David, because I haven't said.

DS: Well I know what Steve Murphy wants because he's said. And you just told me you can't control Steve Murphy and [it] comes out of his committee.

LP: I absolutely can't control Steve Murphy. Can you control Tim Pawlenty?

DS: No. Of course I can't control Tim Pawlenty. I'm not elected to any office. [...]

LP: Can you control Phil Krinke?

DS: No.

LP: So how do you expect me to control an independently elected official? [...] One more problem. I actually am Majority Leader of the Senate. [...]

DS: Yes but [Senate Minority Leader] Dave Senjem isn't out there saying, oh well, all my guys are going to be coming up with these bills.

LP: My understanding is that David is for a comprehensive Transportation bill.

DS: Yes, but I don't think it's your [comprehensive Transportation bill], or Steve Murphy's comprehensive Transportation Bill.

LP: That very well may be true.

DS: [...] I think what's happening is you guys are setting things up so that there will be a huge confrontation over the same bill you had before.

LP: I believe that will not happen.

DS: Based upon what?

LP: Our discussions with members of the Senate. I believe that will not happen.

DS. All right, but the Governor needs to know that it's not going to not happen.

LP: Well maybe the Governor should ask them.

DS: He's having conversations with you. [...] When Roger Moe would shake hands with Arne Carlson, those deals happened. Are you telling me you can't do that?

LP: I'm absolutely not saying that. I'm saying that when there is a Special Session called, there will be a limited agenda that the Governor will support, and we will be done. [...] Did you issue an apology to me yet, David? For saying something on Almanac that was absolutely not true? Absolutely not true.

DS: Could you specify exactly what it was?

LP: You said that I was the person demanding all kinds of items for the Special Session. Absolutely not true.

DS: I do apologize for that. I generalized the caucus and I apologize for that.

LP: Thank you.

DS: I think you are right to demand that apology. But what I don't apology for is saying that the Democrats and the Committee Chairs are certainly making what appear to be lots of demands, [...] like a fourth income tax bracket.

LP: Who ever said the income tax? I have no idea where you came up with that. I don't know anybody that brought that up for the Special Session. [...] It's not in the tax bill [sent to the Governor], it's not going to be now.

DS: So, we're going to have a limited session where none of the things ...

LP: If the Governor calls a Special Session, it will be limited, focused on transportation and flood relief. Absolutely. [...] It's been that way for about four weeks.

DS: [...] That's certainly not what is being reported in the newspapers, and let me tell you, I've talked to a lot of reporters.

LP: Have you read the letters the Speaker and I have sent the Governor?

DS: I have and I've read the vague things that are said about a lot of stuff and even now you're saying "well everyone has one vote."

LP: David, [...] don't project your paranoia.

DS: It's not paranoia. When you say you cannot keep ...

LP: Tell your listeners I was smiling, but I do think there is so much projection of paranoia that we ought to just get over it.

DS: But when you say you can't control your members ...

LP: They're independently elected. [I] encourage them to move in a direction that makes sense at this moment in time. That's all I can do.

If they have a Special Session, it should be about the bridge and the flooding. And what I'm hearing from Democrats, particularly Larry Pogemiller, is "we want to re-fight every single thing we lost on in the last session.